66. Purchase or Lease? What is the Best Solution for You?

Speaker A: 00:00:00

Foreign. Welcome to the Dental Business Podcast, the show for dentists who want to run smarter, more profitable, and more valuable practices. I'm yours.

I'm your host, Phil Cole of KLAS Solutions. And at KLAS, we advise practice owners across every side of the business.

Practice transitions, coaching, accounting, tax and marketing, and then, of course, real estate. All under one roof. That's the lens that we bring to this show for you. And every week we dig into the real business of running a dental practice.

How to grow production without burning out your team, how to keep more of what you earn, how to market in a way that actually fills the schedule, and how to think about the building or building your practice in time and when you're ready to transition out. So we have no fluff, there's no theory. It's just straight talk from advisors, owners, and experts who do this every day.

So I want to get into it because today we are going to talk about real estate. And I have the privilege of being joined by Mark and Rob with Commercial Resources Advisory. And they are going to.

We are going to get into, I should say, a discussion on real estate, which I think is something that, I don't know, you guys can answer for me, but it seems something that I feel like is always just left behind, and there's so many times that it is a critical aspect of the business and it can be used as a critical aspect of the business.

So with that being said, I want to give you guys a chance to just introduce yourselves and I'll start with you, Mark, and then give us a little bit about your company.

Speaker B: 00:01:58

Sure. Thank you, Phil, and really appreciate being on the podcast today. My name is Mark Brodson.

I am the designated managing broker for Resource Commercial Advisors. We are a boutique commercial real estate brokerage based out of Northbrook, Illinois.

But we work nationwide and we are able to help focus on dental and medical practices that are looking to grow and expand, whether that be through leasing more space or purchasing buildings.

We've been focused on medical for the past 13 years and we've built up quite a track record of working with folks like yourself, Phil, to really help add value to dental practices.

Speaker A: 00:02:44

And Ron.

Speaker C: 00:02:46

Hi, everyone. Phil, thank you so much for this opportunity. My name is Ron Roberti. I'm the senior Vice president. Senior, because of all the gray hair and beard.

And I primarily work on tenant representation for dentists, primarily, which I think is important to today's topic, which is with associates who are ready to. To move on and open their own practices.

So it's been a really exciting Ride here for the last four years and look forward to continue serving our clients.

Speaker A: 00:03:26

Awesome.

Okay, so let's, I mean when it comes to the real estate, especially when it comes to buyers for us and associates and stuff, let's just go through the two probably most common questions that you probably get asked.

But I think it's also important too, and that is for when it comes to purchasing real estate, who would you consider are the best candidates for purchasing a building?

Speaker B: 00:03:57

Thanks, Phil. We get asked this question all the time, should I lease or should I own?

And the real answer to that is actually answered with some additional questions. Right. So real estate acquisition is all about capital. So if you are looking to rapidly grow a dental practice.

So for example, if you are in a six op practice and you might want to expand to nine ops, or if you're looking to add another dental practice or two or three more either by acquisition or ground up locations, that might be a sign that you're ripe to lease because you're going to need that capital for expansion down the road. So to answer your question, Phil, the people that would want to buy are people that are stable.

They have a six op practice and they're content and they're going to ride out their time until they retire in that six op practice.

But we find that if you're looking to do any kind of broader business growth, you may want to save that capital for the business growth because it's going to grow at a higher rate of return.

Speaker A: 00:05:07

Okay, so then I guess basically the opposite. Then of course you're either going to buy or you're going to lease.

So what, what do you consider is then the candidates or the, the for when it comes to a leasing. What. Who's, who fits that bill the best?

Speaker B: 00:05:24

Ron, you want to take that one?

Speaker C: 00:05:26

I would probably say that the associates are really perfect for that one is I find just from experience that associates who've been at a, say a national chain they've worked out of or they've worked for a seasoned dentist for three to five years, at that point they start to get the itch and say, hey, I want to do my own thing. Why is it smarter for them to lease? Well, typically they're going to have a lot of student debt that they still have to deal with.

They're not going to have built up the capital. They may have limited capital and the bank is going to look for some assets in the bank. So you want to make sure you have that behind you.

And then one really important thing is you can help defray the cost of your build out with tenant improvement dollars from the landlord. These days it's not uncommon for a dental build out to cost on average about $500,000.

Well, a young associate's not going to have that kind of money to, you know, to pay cash for that. So they're going to take out a loan on some of that. But we're going to go to the landlord and seek tenant improvement dollars from the landlord.

So that's one of them. And the other thing is flexibility, location flexibility.

You can, a lot of times they want retail so they have that exposure and that easy access to the office.

Sometimes it's a medical office building or sometimes it's a traditional office building that just happens to be in a great location where there's a need for that type of dentistry.

Speaker A: 00:07:19

Yeah, I think the other one too that I think is really, really popular and I know that we've worked together on this before. But you know, one that kind of almost has to be a lease in many circumstances is startups.

Just knowing that, you know, the amount of capital that you have to have to be able to do a startup and stuff like that, that's one of those things to then have the bank try to fund a building or real estate on top of it. It just very rarely does it work.

And I know that just for those who are listening, many times we'll get, if we're doing a de novo or what I call ground up construction is another term I guess, you know, you can get the contractors, there's certain contractors out there that will pay for the, for the, the land and do the initial, you know, outside shell per se and then your startup goes into the ti and the build out of the inside of the building.

But even then right now, I mean, would you guys not agree the, the, the price of real estate is just not making that conducive enough to be able to take on that because those, those construction companies still want, you know, are still going to lease that out to you.

And depending on the, the land and, and the construction costs, I at least see that it's too elevated to try to put somebody in that spot unless they are coming with a ton of liquidity to help them out with. Would you guys agree on that?

Speaker B: 00:09:03

Absolutely. Yeah, I think you hit on one, one challenge that Ron and I are having and getting deals done right now is literally making them pencil.

So if you think about it, if a build out is going to be between a half a million and seven hundred fifty thousand, somebody has to pay that Bill. Right.

And it either gets paid partly out of the pocket of the dentist, partly out of the pocket of landlord, but whatever the delta between those two buckets of money are, and the total cost of construction, that has to be built into rent. And so it's not atypical for Ron and I to see $40 a square foot, triple net rents, which means that that's just your base rent.

And you might have to add $5 or $10 more per square foot to cover cabin taxes on new construction.

Where if you find an existing building where the construction has already been done years in the past when building costs were cheaper, those rents we might find to be in the mid-20s or low-30s. So there's a big gap between new construction and existing.

Speaker A: 00:10:13

Okay, so for those who are listening, just by chance, in case they don't understand some of the terminology that I know we're throwing out, I mean, cam, explain what is cam?

Speaker B: 00:10:25

So if you think about rent, rent is based on is built of a couple of components. One is your base rent. And if you think about base rent, that's the money that the landlord's actually pocketing in profit.

But on top of that, every time you occupy a space, you incur CAM common area maintenance charges. These are charges that include roof repairs or landscaping or snow removal.

When you're a tenant in somebody's building, the landlords will pass their. Your proportionate share of their expenses for those items onto you. And then, of course, it's taxes.

Every building, regardless of municipality, has taxes that come along with it. And again, as a tenant, you not only pay your base rent and your share of common area maintenance, but, but also your share of taxes.

Speaker A: 00:11:17

Okay, so with that being said, then let's go over the different types of leases just for the simple fact of. And I know I'm springing this on you guys, but it's not like you don't know how to explain it.

I mean, you have gross lease, you have your triple net lease. Go through those. Because we get those questions all the time.

And I know that you guys have to as well, what's, which one's better or what does this mean? Because of course, if you're not in the real estate world, you hear those things. That's. Those are just shocker things to, to the buyer.

So just give a brief explanation of. Of those.

Speaker B: 00:12:02

So, Ron, do you want to take this one?

Speaker C: 00:12:04

Sure. So. So the first and most common is what we refer to as a triple net lease. So that's what we talked about before. The base Rent, right.

Then you have your taxes, your common area maintenance and your building insurance and you pay your pro rata share. The difference is that when you have your yearly increases, you'll have a predetermined percentage or dollar figure for your base rent.

But the, but typically the increases in CAM and taxes are reconciled at the end of a year and if those costs have gone up, then the landlord is going to pass that along to the tenants in the building. With a modified gross lease you have, everything is included in one number.

So you, your rent, as opposed to base rent is going to include your base rent, your taxes, your CAM and your building insurance. And then the other is something you don't see that often, but I'm happy to be working on one right now is a full service lease.

And that includes typically your utilities as well, all rolled into one, one bucket, so to speak.

Speaker A: 00:13:32

So I mean, I mean, go ahead, Ron or Mark.

Speaker B: 00:13:39

So I was going to say Phil, so you'd ask the question, which one is better? Right.

Speaker A: 00:13:43

Well, I was just going to ask, so which one would you prefer then?

Speaker B: 00:13:46

If you were a buyer, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

If you are, if you're a property owner, I think if you own property, you would prefer to be a triple net rent lease because you, you have base rent and then every year thereafter you know that whatever the growth in taxes and CAM and insurance charges are, you're just going to pass those straight through to your tenant. With a modified gross lease, as Ron described, which includes all of those in one payment, the annual increases are attached onto that number.

So let's say you have a $30 gross lease with a 3% annual increase. Let's say that that year taxes go up 5%.

So as a landlord, you're only allowed to collect your 3% increase and that extra tax increase above 3% is going to come out of your pocket. Now, as a tenant, it's almost better to have a modified gross lease because you know for that first year exactly what you're going to pay.

And then you pretty much know what your, what your expenses are going to be beyond that first year. Although a lot of times in a modified gross lease, the incremental increases.

So like if it started out as $5 in taxes and it goes up to 525 the next year, you'll be on the hook for that extra 25 cents. But it's a little easier to manage if you have a modified gross lease because you, you know what it is that you're, what you're paying for.

Speaker A: 00:15:24

So I guess.

Speaker C: 00:15:25

So the best one. Yeah, the best one is really determined by if we're representing the landlord or representing the tenant to some extent.

Speaker B: 00:15:33

Yes.

Speaker A: 00:15:33

Yeah, that is true. I was just gonna say when with describing what Mark said, that depends on which side you're on of which one is, is better for you.

So, so when you're, I guess when we're looking at purchasing versus leasing, what type of capital are you looking at or what type of capital do you feel is required when it comes to purchasing versus leasing?

Speaker B: 00:16:02

That's a great question, Phil. So let's talk about purchasing for a minute.

The federal government, through the sba, the Small Business Administration, has a very favorable loan program called the SBA504 that is designed to help business owners who want to acquire real estate acquire that real estate. The catch is that whatever real estate you're acquiring, you have to Occupy at least 51%.

So if you're buying a building and you're occupying 100%, you're going to qualify all day long for this SBA 504 loan.

If you're going to buy a strip mall that's got 13,000ft in it, you're, and you're only going to occupy 3,000ft, then you wouldn't necessarily qualify for this loan. So what's great about a 504? What's great about a 504 loan is it's a long term fixed interest rate.

Now there are some escalated fees that you get charged to put the loan together.

But the other huge advantage of it is that it allows you to only put 10% down and you can put 10% down against not only the building, but the build out costs as well. So you can roll all that together into a loan with a long term fixed interest rate and only put 10% down. So that's the real advantage of purchasing.

If you're going to buy a bigger building, then you're going to look at more conventional financing, which would put you in the realm of probably a 20 to 30% down payment. So it's, it's viewed as more of an investment than an owner occupied piece of real estate. And so the terms aren't quite as favorable.

Speaker A: 00:17:56

I think the other thing that's important on that is, is if you're attaching, you know, if you're just doing real estate with what you said, that 100%.

But if you're buying a practice along with that and you're trying to purchase that, just remember for those out there, the practice is going to have to cash flow the real estate as well. So it's not, I mean, you're still gonna have to put your 20% down, but the practice itself does have to cash flow that.

So for sellers that are listening, I think it's important. And Mark and Ron, you can tell me if you think that I'm not right on this.

So many times we run into the problem is the selling doctor doesn't have, has not prepared the practice maybe properly for that to happen for the buyer. If the buyer has good liquidity, the banks are willing to fund. I mean, they're not keeping buyers out of that realm of being able to purchase both.

What we find at least at KLAS is that probably the majority of the time when they can't purchase the practice, it's because the seller doesn't have the cash flow represented to inside of the buyer to purchase, to be able to have that cover debt services on both real estate and practice. Do you guys run across that same issue?

Speaker B: 00:19:24

Yes, definitely. And there are solutions for that. Right.

A lot of times Ron and I will bring an investor to the table to purchase the real estate and then lease it back back to the buyer of the practice.

But you're absolutely correct that it becomes a much bigger transaction and a much bigger nut and a much bigger financing situation when the real estate is included with the practice.

Speaker A: 00:19:50

Yeah. And the reason why I bring that up is so for the sellers that are listening, prepare yourself.

And this is the reason why I always say you never can start too early. Three to five years out is not too early. And I know that I get doctors all the time say, oh, you don't need that much time.

You really do, depending on where your numbers are at. But for the buyers as well, you know that to have that cash flow, sometimes you just look too many times.

The buyers that we run across are just looking to see what they're going to get paid. And it's not what they're going to get paid as a new owner. It's the debt services that this practice has to take care of and facilitate. Right.

And then on the other hand, for the buyers that are listening, you not only have to worry about that, but once again, you guys have to worry about or you guys have to pay attention, I should say, to your liquidity because we see deals that can't happen or you want to buy this practice, but you can't because you went out and bought brand new cars, expensive cars, you went out and bought the house.

And so once again, I guess I'm looking for you guys to tell me if I'm wrong or if you guys don't run across this, but there's so many times that something doesn't, isn't able to happen because you chose personal over business first. And I always would recommend if you want a house, but you also want to buy a practice, buy the practice first, the house second. Agreed?

Speaker C: 00:21:36

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. But you know, one of the, one of the things with that we find is that sometimes if a doctor knows that they're kind of at that tail end, right.

That three to five years they start cutting back. And then the last two or three or four years there's a decline in the income and the profit of the practice.

And they don't realize how much that's going to affect. That's why they need to be talking to someone like yourself ahead of time.

They don't realize how that's going to affect the value and the potential sale of the practice.

Speaker A: 00:22:17

Yeah.

And I think it's important, and thanks for bringing that up because I think what's important about that is people don't understand doctors sit there and think. But I just actually had a conversation with a doctor, he's like, well, I'm only down 50,000 this year.

$50,000 Might not be a big deal to you because it's affected. Maybe your pay to your take home pay. Maybe it's affected at, you know, $2,000 or maybe 500 to $1,000 a month. No big deal. Right to you.

But $50,000 for the bank to look at and apply that to a buyer's situation, that's big dollars.

That's a, that's a lot of cash flow that once again can go towards getting you where, getting that buyer to be where they need versus them now being put in a situation where real estate is not an option. And I would say you guys have to agree, if a buyer can buy the real estate, the buyer should buy the real estate.

Speaker B: 00:23:24

Yes. As long as their plans are not huge rapid growth that are going to consume lots of capital. So absolutely.

For somebody just buying one practice with plans, it makes sense to remain stable and have that. I want to talk about one other thing, Phil. Cause when we're talking about valuations. Right.

Speaker A: 00:23:45

Yeah.

Speaker B: 00:23:45

So cash flow is one thing that it drives the valuation. And I'm really speaking to your sellers right now.

But the other thing that really drives the value of a practice is the symbiotic relationship between the condition of the real estate and the practice itself.

So I'll give you a live example we're working with a doctor right now that's practiced in the same place on in a great Chicago neighborhood for 40 years.

Well, you walk into this building and it's got the ugly metal awnings and the old fashioned door and the paneling that was in all of your basements 40 years ago. So I just want to speak to that for a minute.

So our council to this seller was we'd like you to spend 75 or $80,000 on the cosmetics of this building.

Let's just, it doesn't have to be a total gut rehab, but let's fix up the outside, let's paint the inside, let's put some new flooring and new LED lighting and some ceiling tiles in and let's make this thing look a little more modern that has two bearings. One is it expands the pool of buyers that are going to be interested in your practice. Right.

And two, it actually does increase the value of what you're able to get when you sell the combination of the real estate and the practice. Because when somebody walks into a newly freshened dental office, the psychology of it is amazing. And they're all of a sudden willing to pay more.

So in that example I gave you, we're projecting that for that $75,000 worth of work, we're going to add $150,000 to the amount that we can get at the sale.

Speaker A: 00:25:30

Yeah, I 100% agree. I mean, it goes back to the same thing as is the real estate in the practice.

Kind of coincide with everything that you need to think about too, right? Old equipment, shag carpet, the old paneling and stuff like that inside the building. The. That's going to affect it.

It's going to affect the valuation, first of all. It's also going to affect the want to get in there. I think one of the things is just like you mentioned with the real estate, same thing, right?

ou know, color to be from the: 1940

I don't think those sellers, because I think it's they've done their 40 year, 34 years of dentistry, right. Or they've done their 34 years of medical and they're just tired and they just want to be done and it served them well.

I've heard this phrase all the time and I bet you you guys have, too. Hey, this practice served me well. What are you talking about? I've created a wonderful life. How could anybody not want this practice?

You have to get past that thought process because you have to look at it as what does the buyer want to see, right? One of the things that I always tell them is you guys always are used to coming in to your practice for 30, 40 years through the back door.

When's the last time you went through the front door to see what the patients see, right? So you go through that front door, and then all of a sudden you realize that, hey, the magazines on the.

On the coffee table are all messed up and no one cleaned. No one vacuumed the carpet last night, or when's the last time we had a cleaning lady in here? Or whatever the case may be. And those things all.

When you bring that buyer in to see the practice for the first time, that's what they see. They're seeing what the patient sees inside and out. And it's the same thing with that real estate. It doesn't take much.

But what you have to understand is that buyer looks at it. Which I have a buyer acquisition right now that I'm working with.

And the first thing that he said after walking through it is, is, man, I'm looking at probably like $200,000 of new equipment I'm going to have to replace in a very short period of time. Not the first thing that you want to hear come out of someone's mouth when you're looking at a practice, Right?

And it's no different with the real estate, like you said. I mean, to literally just had one where I walked in, still had the old green shag carpet that I remember growing up. I'm 55.

I remember growing up with, in our living room when I was a real small kid, that carpet was still in the waiting room of this practice. And so how much does that, I guess, real quick, how much does that.

Do you feel like on a practice that can swing that kind of stuff can swing a valuation by 10, 10%? How much can it affect the building?

Speaker B: 00:28:49

Oh, tremendously. And that's why.

That's why we're seeing, you know, that in this case that I mentioned, for every dollar that the dentist is going to invest, we think we're going to get at least $2 of return. And that'll manifest in two ways. One, the building will be more valuable. The.

But we think that it'll create more demand among buyers for that practice. Hopefully we get multiple people interested in it because the Demographics of this practice are phenomenal. The location is great.

It's in a very populous Chicago neighborhood, and it should be really, really attractive to somebody. But if. And we almost have the expression putting lipstick on a pig. Right.

But without that lipstick, it really will drag down the value of the practice. And to answer your question, how much will it, how much will it make a difference?

It really depends on the actual practice and the extent of the renovations. But even just simple things like painting and lighting and flooring make a huge difference in the psyche of.

That would be buyer walking through the door.

Speaker A: 00:29:55

Yeah, I think one of the big ones. Oh, go ahead, Ron. I'm sorry.

Speaker C: 00:29:58

Yeah, we're not, we haven't even talked about the, like those systems of the building. You know, like, what if that H vac system is 40 years old and you've been putting it together with, with bubble gum and paper clips?

Well, you know, in order to replace a system could easily, easily cost 30 to $50,000. So it's not only just the physical what you see when you walk in, but they're gonna, the buyer is gonna have an inspection done. So you.

So also something you need to keep in mind and put money in reserves out of your, out of your can that you collect for, you know, for such, you know, for unforeseen issues like electric H vac, plumbing, things like that.

Speaker A: 00:30:46

Yeah, no, I agree.

it may not. So one unit from: 1990

So now you got a situation where the seller is wanting a premium for the building. Well, what is the buyer immediately. And what do I have to say as a representative of them when they're looking at a building like that?

You gotta sit there and say, well, I wouldn't pay premium dollar when you know you're gonna end up replacing a 15, $20,000 unit. And maybe a winner, right? Next winner. So it's just, it's one of those things where I just, sometimes I laugh and it probably.

For those who are listening and watching the video, probably not thing to be funny about, but it's just kind of one of those things where I guess you guys, you guys tell me, don't you feel as though you get doctors and it doesn't matter Dental, medical, optometry. They always seem surprised when, when you tell them this stuff and they're like, well, I, I mean, I just don't see why that's that important.

Or I just, I don't see why that has to matter. I get that a lot. And it just kind of, to me, floors me that everyone's thinking that way still or that they think that way, period.

You know what I mean?

Speaker B: 00:32:30

So there's an old saying in real estate that price cures all ills.

And so talking to your buyers directly out there, Phil, if you get in there and you find that the h Vac is 40 years old, or if it's on borrowed time, then you have to factor the cost of replacing that H vac unit into H vac heating, venting, ventilation, air conditioning and cooling. You have to factor that into the price that you're going to offer.

And very seldom do we see real estate deals where the buyer just goes in and pays whatever the seller is asking unless the building is in pristine condition. But it is okay and perfectly acceptable.

Acceptable to try to make up for that building's mechanical shortcomings with a reduction in the offer on the price.

Speaker A: 00:33:23

Yeah, absolutely. So. Well, it's a. It's already time. Can you believe it? It's. We've, we've been Gavin away for over 30 minutes.

So any last words that you guys want to put out? There is one more little nugget for everybody that's listening to, to hear.

Speaker C: 00:33:49

know, we try to practice the: 8020

And one of the questions that we ask are our dentists or doctors is what are your growth plans? Where do you anticipate to be in three years, in five years, in 10 years and beyond? So there's never really a clean cut answer to buy or lease.

But you learn that and you advise the best you can based on asking pertinent questions and listening very closely to what your, what your potential client is telling you.

Speaker A: 00:34:42

I would, I would say 100%, I agree with you. And I think that that is one thing that I will say you guys are exceptional at.

You guys ask questions and you guys do listen, which is very important.

I think the other thing that's very important for everyone to understand too is, is when you got somebody that's or a company like yourselves, both of you asking questions, you can very quickly see that they're out for your best interest. They're not out for the commission check.

I think that's the, I think that's a really big understanding for those who are listening too when you have someone, we had one just recently on a startup that we got introduced late to the game. And so the real estate agent was just hounding to get that lease signed right away.

And, and, and you could just see that there was like we need to do a little bit more research on the demographics. Is this the right one or are you just showing this building because you're the, the, the realtor attached to it. Right.

And that you're going to get that commission. So it was, it was daunting to see how much they went after that.

So I agree and, and thank you for making that comment because I, I agree with you 100 those who listen, you're always going to understand and fill the needs of, of the client that you have when you do that. Ron, you got any, or, I mean, sorry. Mark, you got anything left to say?

Speaker B: 00:36:17

Phil, I just wanted to thank you for your listeners out there, your viewers. We've had a great strategic partnership with CLAAS for the last two plus years. We've worked on some very challenging clients together.

And what's great about the partnership is that, you know, Phil handles all of the things from the financial valuations to all the back office and getting everything in place.

And when it comes to real estate, it's a seamless transition that enables us to work together and provide everybody looking to buy or sell with comprehensive services. So thank you, Phil, for the strategic partnership.

Speaker A: 00:36:57

Oh, absolutely. 100%.

And listen, when you, when you have, for those who are listening, seller, buyer, whatever, the most important thing that you guys can have is a strong team, right. And a team that you can, that I know that Ron and Mark work with other people and that's great. That's what it, that's what it needs to be.

We sit there and have other team members too.

When you can create though that great team and to know that you have as a buyer or a seller, knowing that you're covered on all bases with, with everybody that is out for your best interest, I can just tell you it's a win, win every single time. You cannot lose. And that's what you guys offer to our customers. And so I'm greatly appreciative of it as well. So thank you.

So that's going to be it for this episode of Dental Business Podcast.

If you got value out of today's conversation, do me a favor, please hit subscribe, leave us a review and share this with a colleague who needs to hear it. That's how we keep growing this community of practice owners who are serious about building something that lasts.

And if you want to go deeper on anything we covered today, whether it's evaluation, a transition coaching, marketing, tax strategy or the real estate, just give us a shout out at KLAS Solutions and klassolutions.com if you have any concerns or any questions with today Mark, I'll just let you do it real quick. What's the best way for them to get a hold of you so that they can ask you some questions on real estate?

Speaker B: 00:38:35

Yes, so it would be Mark america@resource commercial.net Ron has the same email. Just swap out Ron for Mark and you can always vi visit us on the web@www.resource commercial.net awesome.

Speaker A: 00:38:54

So until next time, keep building a practice that you're proud of. I'm Phil Cole and this has been the Dental Business Podcast.

Speaker B: 00:39:07

Sa.